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BringBackBurndenPark
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 01:48 pm |
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| It's all bollocks!!
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Lack of ambition, lack of money, lack of interest!!!
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Greeny2
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 01:52 pm |
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BringBackBurndenPark wrote:
It's all bollocks!!
The figures quoted are from the esteemed Ben and from BWFC's accounts
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Frankie
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 01:57 pm |
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Greeny2 wrote: BringBackBurndenPark wrote:
It's all bollocks!!
The figures quoted are from the esteemed Ben and from BWFC's accounts
The figures " more or less " tie in with the annual accounts I get a copy of.
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Greeny2
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 02:28 pm |
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| Got to say I love Alonsos "wish all the best to the lads that are going" on his twitter account. Last edited on Mon May 14th, 2012 02:29 pm by Greeny2
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Greeny2
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 02:33 pm |
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Catte Strophe wrote:
Chungy will be in demand, his backers will already be looking to Engineer a move away from the club, they will not let him languish in the Championship.
Already looking forward to next season.
As stated in many posts this season the board and OC took the gamble of going with what we had, with the knowledge 11 big earners are out of contract. The aim was to reduce the age and cost of the squad, with the hope of staying in the Prem. It did not pay off, but we will have reduced the wage bill massively and will be able to bring in young kean players, who are looking to carve a reputation out for themselves.
OC will be the man in charge start of the season, and he will have his team in place. Hopefully a new defensive coach as well.
Chungy has been out for nine months. Nobody really knows whether he will be okay or not. Think he will be around until christmas, then you may be right, thats if we don't play Newport County and he gets his leg broken again.
Same applies to Holden.
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christiep
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 03:08 pm |
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Greeny, could you and tweek do us all a favour and stop spouting negative crap post after post. To be brutally honest, your boring me. Stop treating us all like we're oblivious to whats gone on at our club the past 6-7 years. I think we'll all agree that we've been mismanaged at boardroom level. We've lived well beyond our means to give our fans the opportunity to watch their club prosper in the Premier League. This shouldn't have happened but I sympathise to an extent. Money has spoiled the game and we can't continue the way we were going- it just isn't sustainable.
What happened this season was our board and manager took the gamble to invest in young talent and squad players-spending less than what came in. As such, everything was in place for us to dramatically reduce the cost and age of the squad by July. We all know now that didn't pay off for a number of reasons. We lost our two best players all season, our best defender left in January and one of our players nearly died. Additionally, Coyle's signings weren't brilliant and he got a number of key tactical decisions wrong during the season. Coyle has even come out on record to say this season was a transitional one. Its clear he desperately wanted us to stay up so we could move forward as a football club. I think we need to count ourselves lucky that we didn't gamble our future with mercenaries who would almost certainly leave us if we got relegated.
Moving on from here- providing we keep players like Holden and Lee we could mount a serious attempt at promotion in our first year. It won't be easy next year in a tough league but we are most certainly in a better position than Blackburn and Wolves. Players like Jarvis, Fletcher and Doyle will definately leave Wolves and Hoillett, Gamst Pederson and Robinson will leave Rovers too. Finally, Greeny I understand your worried about the club you love but can you please look at things more positively.
Last edited on Mon May 14th, 2012 03:10 pm by christiep
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BringBackBurndenPark
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 04:07 pm |
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Frankie wrote:
Greeny2 wrote: BringBackBurndenPark wrote:
It's all bollocks!!
The figures quoted are from the esteemed Ben and from BWFC's accounts
The figures " more or less " tie in with the annual accounts I get a copy of.
I ment the whole situation is bollocks! I'm in that kind if mood.
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Frankie
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 05:03 pm |
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BringBackBurndenPark wrote: Frankie wrote:
Greeny2 wrote: BringBackBurndenPark wrote:
It's all bollocks!!
The figures quoted are from the esteemed Ben and from BWFC's accounts
The figures " more or less " tie in with the annual accounts I get a copy of.
I ment the whole situation is bollocks! I'm in that kind if mood.
 don´t cry
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D1OUFY
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 05:17 pm |
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It's only paper debt really - owed to Eddie Davies as a result of interest payments most of which don't get settled in cash. The cash has gone on players wages. If Eddie Davies was to write the debt off we would have a fairly healthy balance sheet although now not in a position to maximise profits. I would be worried if we were in a position like LFC was a couple of years ago which owed its money to a bank.
We aren't going to go into adminstration unless Eddie Davies calls his loans - which presumably he won't do - or there has been serious mismanagement at Board level which forces us to keep paying Premier League wages on Championship revenues. However, with 11 players out of contract in the summer and recent transfers seemingly having relegation clauses in respect of reduced wages (which if true is good risk management by the Board) this appears to be under control. Worst case scenario would seem to be limited investment in playing squad. We will still have a football club to go and support - realistically do we care whether this is against Chelsea et al (when we rarely win) or against Leeds, Forest, Blackburn, Burnley, Barnsley etc.
Lets get away from the doom and gloom - its not as though we haven't been here before.
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Greeny2
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 06:05 pm |
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D1OUFY wrote:
It's only paper debt really - owed to Eddie Davies as a result of interest payments most of which don't get settled in cash. The cash has gone on players wages. If Eddie Davies was to write the debt off we would have a fairly healthy balance sheet although now not in a position to maximise profits. I would be worried if we were in a position like LFC was a couple of years ago which owed its money to a bank.
We aren't going to go into adminstration unless Eddie Davies calls his loans - which presumably he won't do - or there has been serious mismanagement at Board level which forces us to keep paying Premier League wages on Championship revenues. However, with 11 players out of contract in the summer and recent transfers seemingly having relegation clauses in respect of reduced wages (which if true is good risk management by the Board) this appears to be under control. Worst case scenario would seem to be limited investment in playing squad. We will still have a football club to go and support - realistically do we care whether this is against Chelsea et al (when we rarely win) or against Leeds, Forest, Blackburn, Burnley, Barnsley etc.
Lets get away from the doom and gloom - its not as though we haven't been here before.
What happens Dioufy, if Eddie Davies pops off? Who picks up the tab then? Last time I heard he was 77 - not a young man. Thats the real question.
The loan apparently has an agreement that his company shalt ask for it's money back 12 months after relegation. But if we don't make it next season, what will happen then with only 12 million to come in.
There's too many ifs buts and maybes for my liking.
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sweetmcdonald
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 06:46 pm |
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Greeny say's 'the figures show it'. Well the figures actually show f##k all.
Looking at the Companies House figures for BWFC they quote £53m. wages. This is all wages, no break-down as to who gets what. BWFC have been getting over £40m Sky money per season for the last 10yrs. If the 25 man squad were on £30.000 a week each, which of course some are but nowhere near all 25 of them, then this would still not come to £40m. Someone is doing very well out of BWFC.
This £110million debt is as far as I can make out partly down to the cost of the stadium (about £40m.) and the rest is all a bit wooly. The player in/out column should about balance, if not be in the black, and the other running costs should be covered by ticket sales and sponsorship deals. There is very little debt to banks. If the board wanted to borrow £15m. to spend on players it would be able to do so. If this £15m. was spent on two players and they keep us in the Prem, would that be a good investment?
The board chose not to borrow to invest, hoping to scrape-by with what we've got. We are down and they got it wrong. The spin will be (and has been) injuries etc. They manage the club and they got it wrong.
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Greeny2
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 07:00 pm |
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sweetmcdonald wrote:
Greeny say's 'the figures show it'. Well the figures actually show f##k all.
Looking at the Companies House figures for BWFC they quote £53m. wages. This is all wages, no break-down as to who gets what. BWFC have been getting over £40m Sky money per season for the last 10yrs. If the 25 man squad were on £30.000 a week each, which of course some are but nowhere near all 25 of them, then this would still not come to £40m. Someone is doing very well out of BWFC.
This £110million debt is as far as I can make out partly down to the cost of the stadium (about £40m.) and the rest is all a bit wooly. The player in/out column should about balance, if not be in the black, and the other running costs should be covered by ticket sales and sponsorship deals. There is very little debt to banks. If the board wanted to borrow £15m. to spend on players it would be able to do so. If this £15m. was spent on two players and they keep us in the Prem, would that be a good investment?
The board chose not to borrow to invest, hoping to scrape-by with what we've got. We are down and they got it wrong. The spin will be (and has been) injuries etc. They manage the club and they got it wrong.
I was of course talking about the debt going up and up and up. I'm not really that happy about us owing one man £100 million who at the end of the season, who can pull the plug on the club at anytime are you? No other club has such an arrangement and if looked into opens up a whole can of worms.
As I have asked before what happens if he pops off? Presumably we owe his family /partner £100 million and then how on earth does the club pay it off?, when we have few assets to sell.
Oh btw £6 million of the £10 million we owe the bank is due apparently in the next month or so. so our parachute payment of £19 million has already reduced to £13 million.Last edited on Mon May 14th, 2012 07:02 pm by Greeny2
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White Steel
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2012 09:49 pm |
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We aren't going into administration full stop.
Administration requires a possibility the company can be rescued, and for Bolton that can happen in through one or a combination of two ways
a) Our creditors agree to take less than the full value of the debt
b) we find a buyer.
As ED is the creditor he can choose to write off or sell tomorrow so administration brings no advantage.
If we end up in insolvency it will be liquidation and the end of Burnden Leisure plc. The "BWFC brand" and stadium would become assets to be sold to create a new phoenix football club starting - if we're lucky - from the bottom of League 2.
And as that option would probably not raise sufficient revenue to cover the debt, we're back into how much money ED is prepared to lose.
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Greeny2
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 07:11 am |
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Sprout wrote:
We aren't going into administration full stop.
Administration requires a possibility the company can be rescued, and for Bolton that can happen in through one or a combination of two ways
a) Our creditors agree to take less than the full value of the debt
b) we find a buyer.
As ED is the creditor he can choose to write off or sell tomorrow so administration brings no advantage.
If we end up in insolvency it will be liquidation and the end of Burnden Leisure plc. The "BWFC brand" and stadium would become assets to be sold to create a new phoenix football club starting - if we're lucky - from the bottom of League 2.
And as that option would probably not raise sufficient revenue to cover the debt, we're back into how much money ED is prepared to lose.
But his estate becomes the creditor if he pops off. No one will buy bwfc with the club owing £100 million and if he pops off he aint around to decide whether to sign the debt off or not.
They wont get £100 million for the stadium either. The best they could do is to sell the Reebok for housing and have no home for a few years.Last edited on Tue May 15th, 2012 07:13 am by Greeny2
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White Steel
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 09:06 am |
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Greeny2 wrote: Sprout wrote:
We aren't going into administration full stop.
Administration requires a possibility the company can be rescued, and for Bolton that can happen in through one or a combination of two ways
a) Our creditors agree to take less than the full value of the debt
b) we find a buyer.
As ED is the creditor he can choose to write off or sell tomorrow so administration brings no advantage.
If we end up in insolvency it will be liquidation and the end of Burnden Leisure plc. The "BWFC brand" and stadium would become assets to be sold to create a new phoenix football club starting - if we're lucky - from the bottom of League 2.
And as that option would probably not raise sufficient revenue to cover the debt, we're back into how much money ED is prepared to lose.
But his estate becomes the creditor if he pops off. No one will buy bwfc with the club owing £100 million and if he pops off he aint around to decide whether to sign the debt off or not.
They wont get £100 million for the stadium either. The best they could do is to sell the Reebok for housing and have no home for a few years.
The same applies. With one creditor and no realistic corporate rescue plan that could be activated outside the current management structure (non-football Administration involves a redesign of the business, cutting staff and product lines, focusing on high efficiency and productivity) the only options are lose money, sell the club, sell assets or liquidate. All those can be achieved equally well as a going concern as in Administration with Price Waterhouse taking a cut.
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Catte Strophe
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 10:09 am |
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Greeny, Blimey fella your posts ciould only get more depressing if you announced tha arrival of Gary Megson, I bet you are a hoot at parties.
According to MEN Eddie Davies was 56 year old owner of BWFC in 2003, which would make him 65 ish now.
The company he owns is owed £110M, for which they are paid approx £5M in interest payments a year.
The bank is owed about £10M which can be called in with 12 Months notice, they take a better interest rate than ED does so whilst we can make these paymenst they will remain happy. Whilst ED is at the club they will remain happy.
No doubt ED would like to sell the club but only to the benefit of him and the club. Nobody would be interested in purchasing a club that is continuing to bleed money. Hence the changes made this season and the gamble taken.
If ED leaves this Earth, then unless there is anything in writing his estate then receives the £5M a year, not a bad deal and probably more attractive than pushing the club into administration, where they may agree a voluntary deal where they get between 10% and 20% of the debt.
club has 3 years to get back, they will be in a better state at that point, hopefully leaner and meaner and with ED enjoying the ride.
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Greeny2
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 10:22 am |
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Catte Strophe wrote:
Greeny, Blimey fella your posts ciould only get more depressing if you announced tha arrival of Gary Megson, I bet you are a hoot at parties.
According to MEN Eddie Davies was 56 year old owner of BWFC in 2003, which would make him 65 ish now.
The company he owns is owed £110M, for which they are paid approx £5M in interest payments a year.
The bank is owed about £10M which can be called in with 12 Months notice, they take a better interest rate than ED does so whilst we can make these paymenst they will remain happy. Whilst ED is at the club they will remain happy.
No doubt ED would like to sell the club but only to the benefit of him and the club. Nobody would be interested in purchasing a club that is continuing to bleed money. Hence the changes made this season and the gamble taken.
If ED leaves this Earth, then unless there is anything in writing his estate then receives the £5M a year, not a bad deal and probably more attractive than pushing the club into administration, where they may agree a voluntary deal where they get between 10% and 20% of the debt.
club has 3 years to get back, they will be in a better state at that point, hopefully leaner and meaner and with ED enjoying the ride.
You're right about Eddie age read he was a lot older. However £6m of the £10 million is owed immediately.
I hope you are right about the financials, but since we have been trying to reduce our debt since 2000 I'm very pessimistic about the abilities of those charge to sort the club out. I certainly would like reassurances on the strategy for the future as I'm not as confident as you on our future.
I'd like us to develop more streams of income, but the way we're going we seem to be contracting at a huge rate. I noticed that once again the Reebok isn't holding pop concerts, which is one of the reasons we moved to the Reebok in the first place.Last edited on Tue May 15th, 2012 10:29 am by Greeny2
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Catte Strophe
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 10:54 am |
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Greeny2 wrote: Catte Strophe wrote:
Greeny, Blimey fella your posts ciould only get more depressing if you announced tha arrival of Gary Megson, I bet you are a hoot at parties.
According to MEN Eddie Davies was 56 year old owner of BWFC in 2003, which would make him 65 ish now.
The company he owns is owed £110M, for which they are paid approx £5M in interest payments a year.
The bank is owed about £10M which can be called in with 12 Months notice, they take a better interest rate than ED does so whilst we can make these paymenst they will remain happy. Whilst ED is at the club they will remain happy.
No doubt ED would like to sell the club but only to the benefit of him and the club. Nobody would be interested in purchasing a club that is continuing to bleed money. Hence the changes made this season and the gamble taken.
If ED leaves this Earth, then unless there is anything in writing his estate then receives the £5M a year, not a bad deal and probably more attractive than pushing the club into administration, where they may agree a voluntary deal where they get between 10% and 20% of the debt.
club has 3 years to get back, they will be in a better state at that point, hopefully leaner and meaner and with ED enjoying the ride.
You're right about Eddie age read he was a lot older. However £6m of the £10 million is owed immediately.
I hope you are right about the financials, but since we have been trying to reduce our debt since 2000 I'm very pessimistic about the abilities of those charge to sort the club out. I certainly would like reassurances on the strategy for the future as I'm not as confident as you on our future.
I'd like us to develop more streams of income, but the way we're going we seem to be contracting at a huge rate. I noticed that once again the Reebok isn't holding pop concerts, which is one of the reasons we moved to the Reebok in the first place.
No it is not, Barclays bank offer Bolton an overdraft of £15M (extended this year) Bolton use this as working capital so the level falls and rises over the season. Nothing has changed other than Barclays offering a better rate on this, and extension from £10 to 15M. They are not calling any of the debt in or reducing this OD facility.
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Does anyone remember the John Ritson strike at Mansfield ? I doubt even Ali Al-Habsi would have got a hand on that one...
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cardiffwhite
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 09:12 pm |
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Tweek wrote: So the man who is the worst manager in our history and the man who took us down is the the one to take us up. Fuk me this forum is full of wimps .
The worst manager in our history? Seriously???
Stan Anderson
Charlie Wright
Phil Neal
John McGovern
Gary Megson
Any of these names ring a bell? or did history only start in 2010?
I'm delighted Coyle is staying and think PG has done well to cut off any speculation up front by saying so.
There is a vast gulf between the Premiership and the Championship and if we hold our nerve and keep the younger members of the squad together I am sure that we will do well next season.
We have been in far, far worse places than this.
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"Once when Bolton's Icelandic defender Gudni Bergsson got the ball 40 yards out from Barnsley's goal Lars yelled "Shoot, Shoot!".
But then Bergsson did shoot, from 40 yards, straight into the net. Lars shut up."
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Cowdrill
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 09:21 pm |
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Oi
Phil Neal did a great job
BWFC was in dire dire shit when he took over
He stopped the rot
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cardiffwhite
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 09:28 pm |
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Not quite how I remember it Cowdrill, but there you go.
Just read the Iles article and there's not much in there that concerns me. My only slight worry is the thought that if we are going to keep Petrov it may be because the plan is to sell CYL, who because of his age would presumably attract a higher fee.
If possible I'd like to keep Lee - would be prepared to see Petrov go to cut the wage bill, plus his attitude isn't always what it should be.
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"Once when Bolton's Icelandic defender Gudni Bergsson got the ball 40 yards out from Barnsley's goal Lars yelled "Shoot, Shoot!".
But then Bergsson did shoot, from 40 yards, straight into the net. Lars shut up."
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BringBackBurndenPark
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 11:02 pm |
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| You know how they have to slash the wage bill. Will gartside take a pay cut?
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Lack of ambition, lack of money, lack of interest!!!
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christiep
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2012 11:30 pm |
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Nice to see Cardiffwhite and Cattestrophe speaking sense. If I am going to be critical of coyle it would be that his transfers were poor this season and some of his tactics naive to say the least. I've touched on this in previous posts so not going to continue to talk about that. What I do like about Coyle is that he understood that we couldn't continue to pay ridiculous wages which we couldn't afford. I do believe him when he points out that a large number of our big earners would have left anyway. I just think he and Gartside took a big gamble on us staying up this year which backfired.
Btw guys, a manager is judged both on and off the pitch. Megson spent over 30 million pounds on players on big salaries/long contracts. During his tenure our debts grew astronomically. On the pitch we played awful football and attendances fell dramatically. All this for us to stay up by the skin of our teeth. In the words of Megson himself 'those who know anything about football' know that he did more damage than good at our football club.Last edited on Tue May 15th, 2012 11:33 pm by christiep
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Ifs Buts and Maybes
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2012 07:04 am |
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cardiffwhite wrote: Not quite how I remember it Cowdrill, but there you go.
Just read the Iles article and there's not much in there that concerns me. My only slight worry is the thought that if we are going to keep Petrov it may be because the plan is to sell CYL, who because of his age would presumably attract a higher fee.
If possible I'd like to keep Lee - would be prepared to see Petrov go to cut the wage bill, plus his attitude isn't always what it should be.
I agree with Cowdrill on Phil Neal (assuming it wasn't tic - you can never be sure with Cowdrill or le God) - without what he did Rioch would have had no foundations to build on.
And I think Petrov's attitude has been excellent since the Muamba incident - I think he shouldered a lot of the responsibility you woulde expect of a senior pro with a deeper allegience to the club.
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Greeny2
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2012 07:34 am |
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Agree wth Cowdrill about Phil Neal.
It's alright saying that Coyle and Gartside took a gamble with going youth, but did they tell the fans their grand plan? - NO. Perhaps siome fans may have decided not to renew their season tickets if they had been told.
There have been other mistakes of the pitch. Not using Prozone or any form of sports analysis seems to me short sighted. Particularly since all those clubs coming up and all the clubs that stayed up are using it.
Also we no longer have a sports science department, in fact the fella that use to work at our club is now at Fulham, also seems short sighted.
So the club have taken massive gambles I really do hope they know what they're doing.Last edited on Wed May 16th, 2012 07:35 am by Greeny2
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Tweek
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2012 07:56 am |
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cardiffwhite wrote:
Tweek wrote: So the man who is the worst manager in our history and the man who took us down is the the one to take us up. Fuk me this forum is full of wimps .
The worst manager in our history? Seriously???
Stan Anderson
Charlie Wright
Phil Neal
John McGovern
Gary Megson
Any of these names ring a bell? or did history only start in 2010?
I'm delighted Coyle is staying and think PG has done well to cut off any speculation up front by saying so.
There is a vast gulf between the Premiership and the Championship and if we hold our nerve and keep the younger members of the squad together I am sure that we will do well next season.
We have been in far, far worse places than this.
He has the worst record of any manager in our history. Check the stats for yourself.Last edited on Wed May 16th, 2012 07:57 am by
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Catte Strophe
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2012 09:16 am |
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I am with Cowdrill on Phil Neal, he steadied the ship when it was in freefall tail spin, mr Rioch took it onto the next level.
On the grand plan, PG and OC have mentioned they had begun a program of change at the club since july last year, hence my constant droning on about the gamble.
Tweak, any of the Managers inherit such a poor squad and then have to cope with decimation of his best players, and in the top flight.
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Loftys Roar
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Posted: Thu May 17th, 2012 03:48 pm |
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| Still in denial that we have got relegated.
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