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Frankie
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 11:25 am |
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Story here
Well tensions have escalated further now after yesterdays events prior to more sanctions talk at the UN.
Is Iran really pushing it knowing that the US and US are stretched and as usual the French will " sit on the fence " and China and Russia have there own agendas. :question:
Beckett sort it out fast or get out.
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bwfc_lulu
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 11:36 am |
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Wonder what would have happened if Iranian soldiers had tried to sail a military ship up the Thames?
Surely if they're in Iranian waters, they're perfectly within their rights to detain them?
I'm sure they'll be released, once their point has been made.
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Frankie
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 11:38 am |
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bwfc_lulu wrote: Wonder what would have happened if Iranian soldiers had tried to sail a military ship up the Thames?
Surely if they're in Iranian waters, they're perfectly within their rights to detain them?
I'm sure they'll be released, once their point has been made.
Question of their word against ours ..... I know who I would believe first.
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Mark E
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 11:48 am |
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bwfc_lulu wrote: Wonder what would have happened if Iranian soldiers had tried to sail a military ship up the Thames?
Surely if they're in Iranian waters, they're perfectly within their rights to detain them?
I'm sure they'll be released, once their point has been made.
It's hardly the same is it? More like if a foreign naval vessel was of the coast of the isle of wight, would the RN round them up? No, I expect they'd just tell tem to feck off.
I just hope the lads are ok. Iran plays hardball these days
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Frankie
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 11:53 am |
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Mark E wrote:
I just hope the lads are ok. Iran plays hardball these days
I concur Mark...... Iran knows that certain countries abilities are " stretched " by current world events.
Mark dont forget Women are involved too.
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bwfc_lulu
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 12:59 pm |
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To be honest, as a woman, I find the whole 'oh my god they've got a woman' thing a bit silly.
If you're fit and capable enough of joining the army, then you're a soldier, not a man or a woman and I'm sure the woman in question understood that when she signed up. If she's in that area in the first place, she'll be well aware of the dangers that could have arisen during her tour.
I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate, that's all. A country has the right to protect its boundaries. Mark, as I understand it, the naval vessel was in a strait similar to the Thames Estuary. If it's in their waters they have every right to detain the persons trespassing. This is obviously designed to make a political point, if any harm comes to any soldiers, they'll be aware of the consequences.
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Mark E
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 01:09 pm |
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Well it's more like the severn estuary then where it forms a border between two nations. It's possible the RN strayed into Iranian waters but more likely that the Iranians are claiming territory that isn't theirs. The shatt al arab is huge and disputes over its territory helped sparked the 1980 war
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NormidTerrace
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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bwfc_lulu wrote: To be honest, as a woman, I find the whole 'oh my god they've got a woman' thing a bit silly.
If you're fit and capable enough of joining the army, then you're a soldier, not a man or a woman and I'm sure the woman in question understood that when she signed up. If she's in that area in the first place, she'll be well aware of the dangers that could have arisen during her tour.
Ugh, women and children. You always read after disasters how many women and children died. Oh, I am sorry Mr tabloid editor, did all the adult males deserve it or something? Winds me up, that.
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Billy Bradshaw
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 02:01 pm |
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They will be well looked after for now. Eventually, Iran will show what a good bunch of guys they really are by returning our forces in perfect condition. For this, they will expect some consideration for their good deed.
Even Iran are not stupid enough to harm our forces.....they will be fully aware of the consequences if they do.
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Drew
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 07:55 am |
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This is all about internal Iranian politics and the UN Security council vote. The British boats might well have strayed into Iranian waters ( and have done so hundreds of times) but this time it was just before a vote of the UN Security council. Iran knew it would lose the vote and needed an internal political victory to offset the external one. In a few days they will be released.
The ridiculous part of this story is the suggestion that they might be tried as spies. If they were spies then they should have left their uniforms behind!
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Campos Barber
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 09:17 am |
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Can't Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal get in there and rescue them all?
Seriously though my opinion is that the sailors and marines were probably snatched in Iraqi or International waters and Iran are trying to score some points. Iran probably knows they are next on George Bush's hit list
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Frankie
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 09:29 am |
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Well now Iran is humiliating our forces for propoganda purposes 
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d-f-b
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 10:13 am |
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Frankie wrote: Well now Iran is humiliating our forces for propoganda purposes
better than being shot by yanks.....
do all squadies get trained in "what to do if captured?" , we've all seen those shows about what the sas do,, but what about "ordinary" personel?
one would imagine after the 2004 incident that the sailors know exactly what to expect and how to behave,, is this true ?
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D1OUFY
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 10:26 am |
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| At what point do you use force, or threat of, to secure the release of the personnel?
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Mark E
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 10:45 am |
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| I think you have to know where they are first - have we found out yet?
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Frankie
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 10:48 am |
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Mark E wrote: I think you have to know where they are first - have we found out yet?
Only thing I have heard is that they were taken to Tehran on Saturday morning.
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Mark E
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 11:51 am |
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Actually it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Govt knows exactly where they are, but I think we can rule out any military action unless we find out that the captives are in serious & immediate danger. And that is massively unlikely. The govt won't want to give the Iranians more credibility by having a member of special forces captured in Tehran, for example.
It *does* seem like the Iranians are talking shite though.
GB - "this is where our boys were, clearly inside Iraqi waters"
Iran - "no, they were over here, at this point"
GB - "that's still inside Iraqi waters, ha!"
Iran - "Oh yeah. Er, no, they were over here then"
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Frankie
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 12:20 pm |
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Yeh.... their X marks the spot was " a tad " the wrong side of the fence - so to speak.
GPS 
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bwfc_lulu
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 07:04 pm |
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d-f-b wrote: Frankie wrote: Well now Iran is humiliating our forces for propoganda purposes
better than being shot by yanks.....
do all squadies get trained in "what to do if captured?" , we've all seen those shows about what the sas do,, but what about "ordinary" personel?
one would imagine after the 2004 incident that the sailors know exactly what to expect and how to behave,, is this true ?
An ex-colleague of mine went to Afghanistan to make a documentary about music there. He was required to take a 'hostile territory' course before he could go.
So you'd have to imagine British soldiers go through something similar.
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Billy Bradshaw
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 09:14 am |
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| Military action is a last resort. That's because it would put the captives at risk as well as our special forces. If soft diplomacy was level 1 and miltary action is level 10, I think we are only at level 4 or 5 right now. There are a few more steps before it goes to direct action.
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pauloduarte
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 01:50 pm |
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Mark E wrote: It *does* seem like the Iranians are talking shite though.
GB - "this is where our boys were, clearly inside Iraqi waters"
Iran - "no, they were over here, at this point"
GB - "that's still inside Iraqi waters, ha!"
Iran - "Oh yeah. Er, no, they were over here then"
The only problem with above argument is that the Iraqi/Iranian water divide, above, is something devised by the english and not recognised by anyone else, including Iranians or Iraqis, therefore the position being in one or the others waters is not applicable.
BTW this was said by the former UK Ambassador to Kazakhstan in Five Live this morning.
The only way out is for the UK to apologise and ask for the soldiers back. Pure and simple.
If any gung-ho idiot decides to take any military/force actions we will end up in WWIII. So lets hope noone gets those ideas.
The UN itself is asking for the return without attributing guilt to Iran. If you notice, the americans are also veery quiet about it. UK apologises and "conflict" over.
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Campos Barber
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 02:10 pm |
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Why Apologise, these Countries need to be taught a lesson! Nuke em I say
I think the UN will sort this one as I cannot see the Iranians releasing the troops and I cannot see the UK apologising
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Mark E
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 02:14 pm |
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| From what's going on inside Iran, with the letters and tv broadcasts, this is purely a PR stunt for internal morale boosting reasons, as Drew said earlier in the week
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Campos Barber
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 02:50 pm |
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Mark E wrote: From what's going on inside Iran, with the letters and tv broadcasts, this is purely a PR stunt for internal morale boosting reasons, as Drew said earlier in the week I wonder though if the Iranian people are that bothered
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Billy Bradshaw
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 03:31 pm |
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pauloduarte wrote: Mark E wrote: It *does* seem like the Iranians are talking shite though.
GB - "this is where our boys were, clearly inside Iraqi waters"
Iran - "no, they were over here, at this point"
GB - "that's still inside Iraqi waters, ha!"
Iran - "Oh yeah. Er, no, they were over here then"
The only problem with above argument is that the Iraqi/Iranian water divide, above, is something devised by the english and not recognised by anyone else, including Iranians or Iraqis, therefore the position being in one or the others waters is not applicable.
BTW this was said by the former UK Ambassador to Kazakhstan in Five Live this morning.
The only way out is for the UK to apologise and ask for the soldiers back. Pure and simple.
If any gung-ho idiot decides to take any military/force actions we will end up in WWIII. So lets hope noone gets those ideas.
The UN itself is asking for the return without attributing guilt to Iran. If you notice, the americans are also veery quiet about it. UK apologises and "conflict" over.
Sorry Paulo but that's a very naiive view. Your view is one of an ideal world.
If Iran doesn't recognise those boundaries, why did they revise their co-ordinates when told we were inside Iraqi waters?
If as you say, the boundaries are not recognised by anyone, why did they take our forces captive and what law allowed them to do it?
As to the view that we should just apologise.....no, no, no, no, no!!!!! That's the reason they have been kidnapped, because that's what this is.....a kidnap. This is akin to trying to negotiate with a terrorist and why we don't do it. They want us to be beholden to them and we can't do that, especially since we are in the right.
The government has got things spot on. They are escalating this in exactly the right way and with the right timing. But ultimately, this will and should result in force if all else has failed.
The US is quiet because we are applying diplomacy right now, Nobody wants this to escalate, not even the Iranians. But to apply your own logic Paulo......all Iran has to do is release our people....pure and simple!!!
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pauloduarte
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 03:38 pm |
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Billy Bradshaw wrote: Sorry Paulo but that's a very naiive view. Your view is one of an ideal world.
If Iran doesn't recognise those boundaries, why did they revise their co-ordinates when told we were inside Iraqi waters?
If as you say, the boundaries are not recognised by anyone, why did they take our forces captive and what law allowed them to do it?
As to the view that we should just apologise.....no, no, no, no, no!!!!! That's the reason they have been kidnapped, because that's what this is.....a kidnap. This is akin to trying to negotiate with a terrorist and why we don't do it. They want us to be beholden to them and we can't do that, especially since we are in the right.
The government has got things spot on. They are escalating this in exactly the right way and with the right timing. But ultimately, this will and should result in force if all else has failed.
The US is quiet because we are applying diplomacy right now, Nobody wants this to escalate, not even the Iranians. But to apply your own logic Paulo......all Iran has to do is release our people....pure and simple!!!
Its not me that its saying that the boundaries are not recognised. It is a former Uk ambassador. They havent been kidnapped, they have been apprehended by the Iranians in what they feel was a violation of their waters.
Do I think they are bonkers for doing it? Yes I do, but that doesnt change the fact that for them UK is in the wrong. If you look at the map, Iran is a massive country with a massive coastline. Iraq in comparison has a tiny coastline, so it is not surprising that the Iranians feel their waters are as large as they said.
Either way, UK is using diplomacy as you said it, and thats what they should. It is wrong for you to claim that this is terrorism, though.
UN is not getting "demanding" with their communication because, even though they want Iran to return the soldiers but dont recognise that the UK are right in their claims.
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Billy Bradshaw
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 04:01 pm |
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pauloduarte wrote: Its not me that its saying that the boundaries are not recognised. It is a former Uk ambassador. They havent been kidnapped, they have been apprehended by the Iranians in what they feel was a violation of their waters.
Do I think they are bonkers for doing it? Yes I do, but that doesnt change the fact that for them UK is in the wrong. If you look at the map, Iran is a massive country with a massive coastline. Iraq in comparison has a tiny coastline, so it is not surprising that the Iranians feel their waters are as large as they said.
Either way, UK is using diplomacy as you said it, and thats what they should. It is wrong for you to claim that this is terrorism, though.
UN is not getting "demanding" with their communication because, even though they want Iran to return the soldiers but dont recognise that the UK are right in their claims.
As far as we are concerned, we were in Iraqi waters. It's Iran that chaged the co-ordinates to suit their case. So any neutral would wonder why Iran changed them after being told that the co-ordinates they supplied still put us in Iraqi territory.
I didn't say they were terrorists. I said it was like negotiating with a terrorist in so far as they want something from us. They don't want to just hand them back (after all, no harm has been done to Iran)....they want to force an apology from the UK purely as a bargaining gesture and purely to embarrass the UK. If Iran genuinely want this to end peacefully, they could just hand our people over. There is no justification for keeping them.
Let's assume for this argument that they were in Iranian territory. Nobody is suggesting they were spying on Iran. They were too busy checking out a boat. All Iran has to do is release them and all will be well, but they are insisting on keeping them.
They are also forcing them to make statements that they don't want to make and wouldn't make if they had their choice. that's obvious from their demeanour. Another clue to this is that the woman had been forced to wear a headscarf, because she surely hadn't chosen to wear it.
I also don't know where you get the idea that the UN are not demanding their release because the UN somehow accept that the Uk are wrong?? Utter tosh!! The reason the UN are not demanding their release is because we are still in the 'coaxing' phase of diplomacy. If Iran don't release them, the UN will demand their release as the whole thing escalates. By 'asking' for their release, the UN are playing it nicely-nicely.
But you know what makes my blood boil over this? It's those people (on forums such as the BBC) who are using the whole Iraq issue to justify these people being snatched and are almost overjoyed at the fact that our forces have been kidnapped because it allows these idiots to vent their spleen once more at the government for going into Iraq in the first place!!  No matter what the rights and wrongs of our involvement in Iraq are, what the Iranians have done is illegal and we must be the only country in the world who's citizens rejoice at the fact that our forces have been snatched.........amazing!!
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Frankie
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 04:15 pm |
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Billy Bradshaw wrote:
But you know what makes my blood boil over this? It's those people (on forums such as the BBC) who are using the whole Iraq issue to justify these people being snatched and are almost overjoyed at the fact that our forces have been kidnapped because it allows these idiots to vent their spleen once more at the government for going into Iraq in the first place!! No matter what the rights and wrongs of our involvement in Iraq are, what the Iranians have done is illegal and we must be the only country in the world who's citizens rejoice at the fact that our forces have been snatched.........amazing!!
Well said Billy.
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d-f-b
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 04:23 pm |
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i *hate* statements like "its the british that did it"
yes, we did,, but it implies we were the only colonial power out there,,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvand/Shatt_al-Arab
it wasnt that we came in and stuck a solution down.. something got negotiated between all parties... at one point they had this idea that all the waterway was the border
cut forward to hussain, who first wanted ALL the waterway ,, then in 75, they did another agreement,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algiers_Agreement_%281975%29
uk wasnt involved as far as i can see ( so not sure what that UK ambassador is thinking?)
see also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_boundary
then again, thats only in the river,, these guys were captured in the gulf...and i cant find anything that talks about where those boundaries are?
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Mark E
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 07:50 am |
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The penny has dropped. This makes me think even more that it was a deliberate set up to kidnap some UK or US forces
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6512927.stm
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